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Post by James Grimswolf on Dec 4, 2013 20:28:37 GMT -8
An important question that my wife and I have been tossing back and forth: how important is the practice of mysticism (personally interacting with Gods) to modern Polytheism?
Thing is, I'm a bit of a mystic myself (not a great one) so I can relate to others who have mystical experiences of the divine directly and can learn more about how to approach the Gods from others who do the same. My wife, quite a few of my friends and other acquaintances are not mystics. The phrase I keep seeing for this is 'head blind' I guess. However, my wife and those others I mentioned if they were to further their relationship with the Gods share the idea of hard polytheism, that the Gods are all individuals and exist outside ourselves. The trick my wife finds as she tries to relate to some of the same material I'm reading, that not being a mystic she isn't having the same experiences.
So my questions to everyone in the group are:
Is mysticism necessary for practicing devotional Polytheism, and either way why?
Are there already resources out there written specifically to aid non-mystic Polytheists (writings that do not presume the practitioner is capable of perceiving Gods/Spirits/etc.), that I haven't found yet?
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Post by spookymuffin on Dec 5, 2013 12:10:05 GMT -8
I believe that mystical experiences are entirely irrelevant to the practice of polytheism, devotional or not. After all, it's entirely possible to have a fulfilling spiritual life as a monotheist without having or seeking mystical experiences; I don't see why we should have different expectations about our experiences as polytheists. That said, I think a focused and sustained devotional practice - one that is undertaken out of love for the divine - is arguably going to leave one more open to mystical experiences since the practitioner is is making the reality of the Beloved's existence a primary focus in their life. But a desire for communication framed as hearing/speaking/seeing/touching the Divine can be construed as somewhat selfish; selfishness tends to be a major stumbling block in devotional practice. Devotional practitioner or not, many people desire the attention and input of the Gods but seeking out a specific form of input at the expense of what They want is not likely to be fruitful over the long run.
Mysticism is more than discerning/trying to discern the input of the Divine; I think it is the process of getting rid of the layers that prevent us from noticing that input. Being "head blind" has nothing to do with it. (In truth I rather hate that term as it is applied to devotional practice and mysticism; it implies an inability on our part to communicate and be communicated with by the Gods that simply doesn't jive with Their capabilities to make themselves known.) Mysticism can be the pursuit of making oneself ready for that communication when and if the High Ones choose an up close interaction.
I suppose whether or not mystical endeavors are necessary within a devotional context depends on what the person expects from their devotional actions. Are these actions undertaken for the pleasure of the Beloved? Because it is a convenient and effective way to show our love for Them? Because it makes us feel close to Them and more in Their sight? None of these reasons require any mystical effort at all. Sincere desire, pleasure for Their pleasure, and the selfless giving of focused time and attention will certainly yield a satisfactory experience.
All that said there is certainly a lot of crossover between mysticism and devotional practice; many, if not most, mystics could be thought of as devotees of some kind or another. However I don't think the crossover goes the other way; one doesn't have to be interested in mysticism or have any inclination towards it in order to have a rewarding and satisfactory experience as a devotional polytheist.
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Erin
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Post by Erin on Dec 7, 2013 11:52:06 GMT -8
I agree with that last paragraph by spookymuffin, and am of both minds myself about it- literally. In my practice of the Creideamh Si, I am not particularly mystical at all. My focus is on keeping to the pact made originally between the Milesians and the Tuatha de Danann, adhering to Truth in my daily interactions, and living the values expressed in the myths. However, in my practice as a flamekeeper and priestess of Brigit, I am entirely mystical, and that practice is built specifically on my direct experiences of and with Brigit. Part of the practice is also sharing such experiences with sister flametenders so we might all learn and grow together in Brigit through our shared experiences of and with Her. I cannot imagine flametending without the mystical element, although many do so I suppose. So I agree that it is not required in every case, but that in some cases it can also become central and vital.
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lorna
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Post by lorna on Dec 31, 2013 4:55:48 GMT -8
Mysticism has been central to my life since I began reading the poetry of the Romantics and studying philosophy. It was visions of the spirit world during trance states that led me to discover paganism and the deities and spirits I honour today. However I think everybody's path is their own and how they relate to the gods is a matter of personal experience.
I find the term 'head blind' not only unhelpful but darn right offensive and was shocked when I came across this term and others such as 'god phone' within polytheist discourse. I believe the gods communicate with others in a variety of ways- some come in dreams, visions and poetry, others in physical signs, feelings, intuitions and less obvious gnoses. All of it's valid and it's all of equal value. For me the ultimate marker of relationship with a deity is that feeling of rule-defying, awe-inspiring, inexplicable truth.
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Post by aclockworkireland on Dec 31, 2013 12:20:16 GMT -8
Personally I dont pay too much attention to what people claim to see and do. Paganism involves a lot of ego and competition and I think it drives people to draw conclusions they otherwise wouldnt make.
The main reason is I would very rarely discuss the details of my experiences, the only people I talk about it with are the same people Id share the other intimate details of my private life with. Its the same for most people I know. Its too profound and because of that too personal to talk about casually.
Some people dont know how to keep a confidence even their own, but thats rare in grown adults. SO people who do talk are either bullshitters making it up or are people who are giving something valuable because they think theyll getsomething in exchange. Social status etc.
Edit
Ive never heard of non mystic resources... maybe normal non pagan books tho?
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Post by spookymuffin on Dec 31, 2013 13:45:04 GMT -8
It was interesting that this thread came up when it did since I was thinking about mysticism around the same time. This thread in particular really got me thinking. I wonder if some of the confusion about mysticism is the result of simply not having a good collective grasp on what the term refers to. It seems the dialogue surrounding mysticism more or less agrees that mystical practices have to do with interacting with the Divine in a personal way but past that it gets kind of muddy.
Regarding non-mystical polytheism: Asatru (and most other reconstructionalist Northern traditions) could be considered non-mystical, at least on the community level. That is, most Asatruar would say that mystical practices are not a necessary part of practicing their tradition. Regular devotional rituals are probably about as mystical as some Asatruar ever get. Rune magic, trance, and related practices aren't a major part of the religious practices of many Asatruar (and one could argue about whether these are inherently mystical or not). Though the books introducing Asatru to newcomers mention these subjects, a person with any regular mystical practice was definitely the exception in the groups I hung out with. (These opinions are drawn from several years spent hanging out in Asatruar groups in the western part of the US; however, I haven't been active in that community for nearly seven years so current Asatruar may well have a very different take on the overarching prominence of mystical practices.)
ETA: There are several intro to Asatru books out there. If I think of any particular that I recommend I'll add them here but poking through Amazon will probably give you a few titles to look at.
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Post by spookymuffin on Dec 31, 2013 13:51:47 GMT -8
Personally I dont pay too much attention to what people claim to see and do. Paganism involves a lot of ego and competition and I think it drives people to draw conclusions they otherwise wouldnt make. The main reason is I would very rarely discuss the details of my experiences, the only people I talk about it with are the same people Id share the other intimate details of my private life with. Its the same for most people I know. Its too profound and because of that too personal to talk about casually. Some people dont know how to keep a confidence even their own, but thats rare in grown adults. SO people who do talk are either bullshitters making it up or are people who are giving something valuable because they think theyll getsomething in exchange. Social status etc. Well put. This is something I struggled with for a long time - still do, sometimes. I understand now that my oversharing was motivated by fear and confusion but also because I wanted that 'something valuable'. Sharing sacred things just because I wanted to gain something wasn't right and I suffered for it. It's a lesson I still have to study. |
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Erin
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Post by Erin on Dec 31, 2013 16:08:19 GMT -8
About the sharing- I think this is in part what the Irish tradition of an anam cara is about- having that special person with whom one can share about such experiences. I don't share publicly myself, but I do share within intimate communities designed with such sharing in mind, and I find that such sharing can be a valuable way to gain insight and grow by the collective experiences of others within the intimate group. This would be another reason for and manner in which such sharing can be appropriate and useful, without seeming to debase its significance by doing so in overly casual and public ways.
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Erin
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Post by Erin on Dec 31, 2013 16:12:18 GMT -8
Interesting point too about today's polytheistic communities being not oriented towards the mystical. This makes sense when a community is emphasizing its social dimension and the tradition's relevance to everyday living. But I think all traditions carry these layers of social, mystical, civic, etc., and that not only did/do some members of the society focus on one area exclusively, but members can also engage with all levels in different ways for different ends, and this has been shown in folklore. So I'd be wary of any polytheistic community which claims to have little to do with any of these areas, as all were vital parts of a holistic tradition.
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lorna
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Post by lorna on Jan 1, 2014 9:40:54 GMT -8
@ aclockworkireland
'The main reason is I would very rarely discuss the details of my experiences, the only people I talk about it with are the same people Id share the other intimate details of my private life with. Its the same for most people I know. Its too profound and because of that too personal to talk about casually.
Some people dont know how to keep a confidence even their own, but thats rare in grown adults. SO people who do talk are either bullshitters making it up or are people who are giving something valuable because they think theyll getsomething in exchange. Social status etc.'
Within the Bardic Tradition there is a custom stretching back to the 6th century Bard Taliesin of questing inspiration and visions, possibly through trance states and shamanic techniques and sharing it in poetry. Twentieth century poets such as William Butler Yeats and Fiona MacLeod have continued this tradition, which in turn has been taken up by Celtic shamans such as John Matthews, R.J.Stewart Tom Cowan and modern Bards such as Kevan Manwaring, Robin Herne and Charlotte Hussey. All of these people share their personal experiences either directly or through stories and poetry. Whilst they might make a small amount of money from their books and have a certain status I would conjecture that what drives them to share their visions is a duty to the sacred.
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Post by aclockworkireland on Jan 2, 2014 0:00:42 GMT -8
@ aclockworkireland 'The main reason is I would very rarely discuss the details of my experiences, the only people I talk about it with are the same people Id share the other intimate details of my private life with. Its the same for most people I know. Its too profound and because of that too personal to talk about casually. Some people dont know how to keep a confidence even their own, but thats rare in grown adults. SO people who do talk are either bullshitters making it up or are people who are giving something valuable because they think theyll getsomething in exchange. Social status etc.' Within the Bardic Tradition there is a custom stretching back to the 6th century Bard Taliesin of questing inspiration and visions, possibly through trance states and shamanic techniques and sharing it in poetry. Twentieth century poets such as William Butler Yeats and Fiona MacLeod have continued this tradition, which in turn has been taken up by Celtic shamans such as John Matthews, R.J.Stewart Tom Cowan and modern Bards such as Kevan Manwaring, Robin Herne and Charlotte Hussey. All of these people share their personal experiences either directly or through stories and poetry. Whilst they might make a small amount of money from their books and have a certain status I would conjecture that what drives them to share their visions is a duty to the sacred. Lorna I wouldnt argue with you about your beliefs and what drives shamans to do what they do is their business. But in purely terms of culture to say that WB Yeats and the Golden Dawn are a continuation of an Irish or Welsh culture is complete crap. The GD is nothing to do with Irish culture we dont have an indigenous expression of the club tradition that created ceremonialism, we have fam trad. And Yeats is a dirty spot on irelands history. Yeats argued for anti semitism in the senate. His letters in the papers contributed to anti semetic riots from the start of the 20th century until WW2 aND the entire jewish population of Ireland left over it. I used to live in what was the Jewish quarter in Dublin, you wouldnt even know it existed now. The only role he played in Irish culture was constructing a gaelic monoculture to facilate a nation state that has oppressed Irelands multi ethnic indigenous culture for 5 generations. Its not just jewish people that left, 2 of the 5 ethnicities indigenous to Ireland died out in the 20th century because of that nation state and the war in the north is 90% because of the nation state too. I just heard a news story about a group of people from the Yola ethnicity in wexford that were forced onto an island off the coast. On average there were 2 families to a 3 room house with 6 kids each and they were reduced to hunter gatherers. That was until a storm and the island went under a huge wave that drowned them all. Until they were driven off they werent even allowed to pray in the same church as gaelic people, they were on their knees praying in the mud. Lets put that man in context with other writers like wilde. The man supported the nazi party hed have put a pink star on Wilde and sent him to the gas chambers. When he met Douglas Hyde in trinity college he said he thought people like him were shot on trinity grounds. Hyde was a romantacist and dressed up like an Irish peasant. Yeats was a part of an ascendancy class that took over a war for freedom and turned it into something horrific. Nothing he does is positive and anyone that follows on from him is either ignorant of irish history, a person who places paganism above culture or an aspirational nazi. |
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lorna
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Post by lorna on Jan 2, 2014 8:44:30 GMT -8
@ aclockworkireland - I was aware of Yeat's connection with the Golden Dawn but not with anti-semitism. I guess that like with Ezra Pound it's a tricky question whether it's possible to value a poet's works aside from their personal beliefs.
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Post by aclockworkireland on Jan 2, 2014 12:13:26 GMT -8
A lot of people make excuses for him because his poetry is famous, the best anyone can say about him is he was a symptom of a bad modernity at the time. Not the cause. In my opinion saying yeats was only a part of something larger is just an excuse to use his poetry to excuse nationalism and the monocultural national identity we were raised to believe was an essential part of our culture www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/the-fascist-leanings-of-wb-yeats-25976745.htmlPersonally I dont find his stuff culturally relevant Yeats poetry seems to have deep meaning but its not mysticism hes just mimmicing the french symbolists and his prose for all the mythological characters in them are developed from Japanese noh plays. Its an expression of modernity but not really a culturally Irish one. There are other people of the same class as yeats who are involved in that celticy mysticism like AE/George Russell. He was a mate of Yeats but didnt share any of his politics and hes only one of a big group of people inspired by theosophy who expressed a celtic mysticism in their art back then. Yeats is a stain on Irelands history and worthless as a source on anything [when there are other people who lack the drawbacks of using him]. |
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Post by marybeth on Jan 5, 2014 14:38:26 GMT -8
What is "mysticism" being used to describe here? Trancework and related tasks? Dreaming? Divination? Any kind of communication with Them? Only specific kinds? I'm not sure I understand the concept being discussed.
I don't know about mysticism, but I think *communication* with and from Them is very important, and one reason why Polytheism is so much more real and vital to me and my life than Christianity was; not only do I now know they are Real(after experiences communicating with them in up close and in more distant ways), rather than just having "faith"(though faith is what carried me through the process!), but I can actually have a relationship with any of Them, instead of just talking endlessly into a black hole and searching for warm fuzzies. I have in the past had more "mystical" experiences; as I've gotten busier communication is now limited to Tarot/divination and physical omens/coincidences. Maybe I'm just trying to make myself feel better about something I no longer have(whether temporarily or forever remains to be seen), but I think MAKING THE EFFORT, no matter what your propensities and innate abilities seem to be, is absolutely important if you want to have an actual relationship with Them. I feel like worrying about being "headblind" is sort of missing the point. If you meet Them halfway by trying something, They will(if They want) make sure you hear Their messages, in time.
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Post by marybeth on Jan 5, 2014 14:41:29 GMT -8
(Also, as a sort of related aside, my divination is MUCH more direct/clear when I ask a specific Deity questions after ritual than when I'm just reading. )
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