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Post by moonwolf23 on Sept 26, 2013 10:13:10 GMT -8
What role does scholarship, or Personal Gnosis play in your worship of the Gods? Which is more imp and why.
For me, Personal Gnosis is more imp It's about a connection I have and feel to the Gods, not whether it is accurate to what my ancient ancestors did.
Not sure how to word this part. I'm wondering if being a modern human, makes it harder to understand and connect with the Gods, because we have different values in some cases then our forebearers who used to worship them did.
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lorna
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Post by lorna on Sept 26, 2013 11:18:36 GMT -8
I tend to use a combination of both. I believe archaeology and mythology both provide important clues to the nature of the gods- their locations, clues to how they were worshipped and their stories. However these are only guidelines. I've found the deities I connect with to be present in unrecorded places and to show aspects of themselves and their lives that are not present in known myths. Weaving insights gained from scholarship and UPG together is, for me, part of the magic of gaining an understanding of a deity and developing a relationship of trust. It's also really awesome when you find out something from UPG and later find it's backed up by scholarship or even in an obscure article or work of fiction.
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Post by brigidsblest on Sept 26, 2013 13:10:39 GMT -8
I also use a combination of both, with the background of archaeology and mythology to help sort out things I get via UPG and to try to discern which might be actual connection and which parts are just in my mind. I believe the gods can grow and learn (just like humans) and, from those experiences, even change (just like humans), so things that might not be strictly grounded in lore are not necessarily wrong, given the area, history, situation, new info, etc. The idea of a static and eternally unchanging deity is, to me, unnatural and frankly kind of terrifying. If humans can grow and change and deities couldn't, that would call for a severe re-evaluation of the basis of the relationships between the two. Growth and change make for continual improvement; I just can't see that humans could be capable of that and deities couldn't be.
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Post by captainspellingerror on Sept 26, 2013 13:50:50 GMT -8
Since I employ the reconstructionist methodology in structuring the rites and festivals of my faith archaeology, history, mythology, and other scholarly works are terribly important to me. UPG is more important in my understanding of the gods, what they want from me, what to bring back, how to tweak things, and my analysis of the relationships deities have to us humans. UPG, at this point, has been a deal less important than scholarship though I do rely on it for somethings (such as my belief that Apollo likes vanilla and that Athena prefers things scented with mint or mint-like smells or that Aphrodite does not prefer libations containing vodka.)
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Post by Heliocoptero on Sept 26, 2013 16:03:26 GMT -8
To me, academia and UPG are equally important. You have to keep in mind that mythic narratives, poems and archaeological traces are expressions of past experiences with the Gods and devotion towards Them, even if the preservation of those pieces of information is often far from ideal. Just like I resort to teachers and experienced people whenever I want to learn something, when I want to know the Gods I naturally resort to the work of their past worshipers. Why I should I neglect their expressions of faith and devotion just because they lived hundreds of years ago? It doesn't mean I have to do everything they did or limit myself to it: the world has changed tremendously, yes, and there are a lot of gaps, but I'm not paying tribute to new gods. I'm worshiping old gods and as such I like to know what was done for Them in the old days. I need a solid basis from where to start and, as I see it, there's no better starting point than the experience and devotion of those who actively honoured Them in the ancient world.
Of course, following what Conor said, reconstructionism is a methodology and not a goal in itself. I'm not re-enacting a religion, but giving new life to it. Which means that I'll naturally have to take into account the modern context and the needs of today's life, not to mention filling in the gaps. And any living cult will change as things around it evolve and people add in their personal experiences with the Gods. That's where UPG comes in. That's its role.
Living religion is simultaneously traditionalist and innovative. It preserves and transmits old lore and practices, while at the same time adapting them and innovating. It's a building under constant renovation, but it starts somewhere, out of foundations that resonate throughout the entire structure. If it's not rooted, it collapses and is constantly being started anew; if it doesn't move past the foundations, it will never grow into a proper building. We need both academia and UPG to be rooted in the past and grow strong in the present. At least the way I see it.
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Post by imbrium on Sept 26, 2013 22:01:06 GMT -8
My favorite is when someone else's UPG matches mine- like that Aphrodite does seem not to prefer offerings involving vodka. Our some of my experience involving Ares and dragons. I am more likely to follow personal gnosis than academic treatise, but that should not be read to mean that I think academia is unimportant.
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Post by Hester on Sept 26, 2013 23:21:02 GMT -8
To me, scholarship provides the base recipe, while UPG gives it flavor.
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Gandillon
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Post by Gandillon on Sept 27, 2013 5:41:03 GMT -8
I think they need each other to help us connect to the gods. UPG helps us feel a personal connection, but ancient practices help us understand who that god really is.
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Post by roguebiologist on Sept 27, 2013 5:43:37 GMT -8
Following UPG I almost invariably go search the literature to try and look for other precedents and get context. Yes, I apply the scientific method to religion... but to be fair that's actually an integral part of my faith. I work with a Daeva whose name does not appear anywhere in the literature, but he's strongly steered me towards being scholarly. Even if I do not worship as is done in the past, I'm expected to fully justify why I don't and cite examples to support my argument. I've wound up stupidly well educated about a lot of other traditions, but very little of it is directly relevant to my own practice, it's quite strange really. On the other hand, the amount of times when UPG and archeology line up has been startling - I wonder if I'll not eventually find my practices aren't dissimilar to those in the past after all?
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lucky
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Post by lucky on Sept 27, 2013 8:48:06 GMT -8
yeah, i'm into upg pretty much always but at a verry slow turtle's pace.
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Post by moonwolf23 on Sept 27, 2013 9:40:19 GMT -8
Following UPG I almost invariably go search the literature to try and look for other precedents and get context. Yes, I apply the scientific method to religion... but to be fair that's actually an integral part of my faith. I work with a Daeva whose name does not appear anywhere in the literature, but he's strongly steered me towards being scholarly. Even if I do not worship as is done in the past, I'm expected to fully justify why I don't and cite examples to support my argument. I've wound up stupidly well educated about a lot of other traditions, but very little of it is directly relevant to my own practice, it's quite strange really. On the other hand, the amount of times when UPG and archeology line up has been startling - I wonder if I'll not eventually find my practices aren't dissimilar to those in the past after all? I'm totally curious now, as to who the Daeva is? Perks ears.
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Post by David Dashifen Kees on Sept 27, 2013 10:31:00 GMT -8
I'm more of a theologian. Being lacking in the "numinous moments" category, UPG and I haven't met yet though she's a friend-of-a-friend more often than not. I'm not personally a fan of reconstruction because I like the modern world and don't really feel the personal drive toward doing it old-school. I speak flippantly, but no offense is intended; I have great respect for scholarly activities and I enjoy learning more about the past and its cultures and myths, but it's just not for me at this time in my life. 'Course, many have wondered (myself included) that my lack of grounding in the cultures of those powers that I choose to work with is what keeps that numinous quality separate from my workings. Finally, I'd like to end with the statement that I stared at the lucky's avatar for a while and now I feel a little ill. 
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2013 18:18:39 GMT -8
I use a combination of both as well. I like knowing the historical precedents, because it helps me get to know a god better, but it's not the same as experience with that god, which is where UPG comes in. They feed off each other, I think, because once you know what to look for, it's easier to understand messages and other things you might get. You can understand the epithets and aspects of a deity and how they were worshipped, which may be relevant to your own experiences. That's how I generally approach it.
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Post by aclockworkireland on Sept 27, 2013 19:19:29 GMT -8
I strike a balance but my experiences are most important to me. They test the concepts I come up with to make sure they arent misconceptions. I didnt believe in deities til I experienced them at heritage sites here.
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Post by Indigo on Sept 27, 2013 21:24:34 GMT -8
Academia to me is the starting point. That is what orients me towards the Gods, while UPG fills in the nitty gritty details--like Hester said, it gives the flavor. Looking at historical/archaeological/mythological resources gives me an idea of how to do a ritual, but it's the UPG that tells me if the Gods were pleased or not with it.
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