|
Post by marybeth on Nov 5, 2013 17:55:36 GMT -8
So, talking to a Jewish friend a while back briefly about similarities/differences in Greek Polytheism/Judaism, he remarked that to be Jewish, it wasn't necessary to believe in God, and that many Jews were pretty agnostic; the most important thing was the practice of the religion and culture rather than the belief system.
I've definitely heard/read a lot about Paganism at large being an orthopraxic system rather than orthodoxic; when reading Drawing Down the Moon years ago in my Neopagan days, it struck me when it was said that even Trad Wiccans don't all believe the same things.
As someone who definitely believes in the Gods as a hard polytheist, I'm intrigued by the idea and interested in you guys' opinions on such things in polytheism. Could someone who, though they might not be certain about, or even outright disbelieve in the Gods' literal existence, but practiced faithfully the traditions, rituals and holidays as if They were real and separate entities, fit into particular Polytheistic systems(those who are not disrespectful/dismissive, of course)? Or is it too important that we all believe in Them/experience Them in similar ways?
|
|
|
Post by marybeth on Nov 5, 2013 17:58:45 GMT -8
(And now we can see why I'm not a writer. Let me know if I should try to rewrite any of those questions for clarity.)
|
|
|
Post by Heliocoptero on Nov 6, 2013 5:25:45 GMT -8
Could someone who, though they might not be certain about, or even outright disbelieve in the Gods' literal existence, but practiced faithfully the traditions, rituals and holidays as if They were real and separate entities, fit into particular Polytheistic systems(those who are not disrespectful/dismissive, of course)? In one word: yes! It's not just an issue of uniformity in belief, which I seriously dislike, because that would lead us down the same path as Christianity or Islam and its hunt for heretics. It's also an issue of the basic philosophy of polytheism. An atheist friend of mine once tried to understand my religion by asking me what gods I believe in. When I answered "all of them", he was confused and then said that was impossible, that I couldn't just believe in all of them. And yet, as a rule, I don't deny the existence of any god. The problem with my friend was that he was thinking under the monotheistic assumption that to worship is to believe, because there is little room for a neutral alternative: either you're with God or against Him. Not so with polytheism, for since there are no limits to the number of deities, it is, by nature, an open system that accepts the existence of Powers outside one's pantheon. This means that what best defines a polytheist from a given tradition is not what gods he/she believes in, but which ones he/she worships. So, for instance, an ancient Roman traditionalist probably wouldn't deny the existence of Egyptian or Canaanite deities, but wouldn’t worship Them. Practice defines you better than belief. Even if one takes a more monist approach and considers that there's only one pantheon of multiple gods, but viewed differently in different cultures - e.g. Jupiter, Zeus, Taranis and Thor are the same thunder god - even in that case it is practice that defines you as a polytheist, for you worship those gods according to a given ritual tradition. If you take an eclectic view and mix ritual traditions, again it is practice that defines you as an eclectic, not a belief in gods, some of which you may not worship. And to go back to the beginning, I don't mind that people have different views on the Gods' nature and identity, if Zeus and Jupiter are the same or not, if They and other Powers care about us or not, etc. I would gladly perform a ceremony with people who held different theological views, because faith is ultimately personal. But in order to perform a ceremony together, we need a common ritual framework, which leads us to orthopraxy in the face of heterodoxy.
|
|
|
Post by Wynn Dark on Nov 6, 2013 6:29:27 GMT -8
Is it important that we all experience the Gods in the same or even similar ways? Not in the slightest, that's always fairly cool when people have shared experiences of the gods and all but isn't required.
Is it important that, at least for the purpose of X ritual that all involved have a decent grasp of the framework that is being used? Absolutely, the ritual is much more likely to flow and not fall apart if everyone has at least a rough framework that they all agree on, no matter how much spontaneity is worked into said framework.
Now for the sticky one, is it required that we all believe in the Gods as individual entities? Yeah, I'm going to have to say that's rather high on the list, far higher than orthopraxy in my (not so) humble opinion. I'd say that lived experience, contact with the Gods that at least in part removes the need for belief is probably the only thing that trumps believing in them in the first place...but we don't all inherently get to have such experiences, because that's just not how it works (in my experience).
However, if you are 'worshipping' a God that you don't actually believe in, then you really aren't worshipping them so much as playing with the sock puppets in your head and personally I've got a problem with that. I'm not saying that you have to have absolute rabid belief in X Y or Z text that describes said God in such and such a way, no, I don't buy the idea of 'holy writ' but if you don't believe then what's the point? Psychotherapy can be done without involving the Gods after all. It's natural for people to be unsure of themselves when it comes to their beliefs in the Gods, especially in this day and age, but to be purely agnostic or heavens forbid atheist and still go 'worship' as though you aren't sounds a whole lot like mentally playing with yourself or worse, lying to the Gods.
So long as a person actually believes that the Gods are separate, distinct and real beings, then I don't have any troubles with hammering out a form of group worship with them, even if we don't theologically agree on much of anything else. If the person in question is strictly agnostic or atheist and just likes the aesthetics of it all though, no thank you I can find my way back to the door or show them where it is. That's not to say that I'd be opposed to allowing someone who was really unsure of their beliefs in on a ritual, so long as they are respectful and have at least an open enough mind to consider the possibility...but once they have put their foot down firmly in the agnostic or atheist camp, I'll have to politely ask them to wait for the more social aspects of a gathering to take place and leave the actual worship to those that believe in the Gods.
I've rambled on for quite enough now I think, perhaps actually managing to express my opinion on the matter in the process.
|
|
|
Post by anfiasaloch on Nov 8, 2013 10:33:09 GMT -8
I generally consider myself orthopraxic, because I feel like orthodox would infer you have to be "right" or "correct" in your belief. Really, I don't think many of the gods care, if you are doing what your religious/cultural community (or the gods, for that matter) consider "right" or "correct", then I think it is appreciated. I regularly go through crises of faith, when I doubt everything I have invested so much of my being into over these past years, but I consider this to be a healthy part of my spirituality. To doubt and then be shown I am mistaken in my doubt only reaffirms my sincerity and belief in what I am doing. And I have never felt like the gods and spirits I honor look down on me for it. In fact, I attempt to speak directly to them when I am feeling intense doubt, so they understand more of what I am experiencing and pray for their guidance.
My feelings on the subject may be largely influenced by how I believe in the differences between religion and spirituality, as well as the diversity amongst the gods and spirits. I always considered religion to be the system based on spiritual experience, but spirituality is the personal experience of the individual. Its just etymology really, but I don't necessarily believe that I am always going to have experiences that are within the understanding of my religion, because I am a hard polytheist and believe gods from different cultures can have very different personalities and ideologies and may or may not choose to interact with me in some way.
|
|
Grace
New Member
Posts: 8
|
Post by Grace on Nov 8, 2013 12:17:25 GMT -8
The difference, in my mind, between modern polytheists and Jews when it comes to orthopraxy is that the latter have a living cultural heritage to draw from. Revived polytheism does not have the living traditions or coherent communities that support stand alone orthopraxy. We don't have a set of taken for granted practices - or even shared holy days! - to work from, and those communities that do have the beginnings of this tend to be rather small and often not entirely open to the larger community, partly because the development of a culture and orthopraxy probably requires a level of likemindedness to solidify into something that can last.
That said, I don't feel belief is a requirement to practice polytheism and suspect that polytheism can be grounded in either practice or belief. I suspect that sincere, open-hearted practice can lead to belief, just as belief can lead to the development of a rich, meaningful practice.
|
|
|
Post by Heliocoptero on Nov 8, 2013 15:56:39 GMT -8
The difference, in my mind, between modern polytheists and Jews when it comes to orthopraxy is that the latter have a living cultural heritage to draw from. Revived polytheism does not have the living traditions or coherent communities that support stand alone orthopraxy. We don't have a set of taken for granted practices - or even shared holy days! - to work from, and those communities that do have the beginnings of this tend to be rather small and often not entirely open to the larger community, partly because the development of a culture and orthopraxy probably requires a level of likemindedness to solidify into something that can last. Bingo!
|
|
Drekfletch
New Member
Hellenic-ish polytheist in NH
Posts: 10
|
Post by Drekfletch on Nov 9, 2013 16:18:42 GMT -8
Could someone who, though they might not be certain about, or even outright disbelieve in the Gods' literal existence, but practiced faithfully the traditions, rituals and holidays as if They were real and separate entities, fit into particular Polytheistic systems...? In other words, if all external indications were that they were hard polytheists? I think there would be no problems. I don't know how well they'd manage to stay that way, given current culture and it's love of declaring it's individualism, but they'd be fine if they kept "acting as if."
|
|
|
Post by aclockworkireland on Nov 10, 2013 14:47:28 GMT -8
So, talking to a Jewish friend a while back briefly about similarities/differences in Greek Polytheism/Judaism, he remarked that to be Jewish, it wasn't necessary to believe in God, and that many Jews were pretty agnostic; the most important thing was the practice of the religion and culture rather than the belief system. I've definitely heard/read a lot about Paganism at large being an orthopraxic system rather than orthodoxic; when reading Drawing Down the Moon years ago in my Neopagan days, it struck me when it was said that even Trad Wiccans don't all believe the same things. As someone who definitely believes in the Gods as a hard polytheist, I'm intrigued by the idea and interested in you guys' opinions on such things in polytheism. Could someone who, though they might not be certain about, or even outright disbelieve in the Gods' literal existence, but practiced faithfully the traditions, rituals and holidays as if They were real and separate entities, fit into particular Polytheistic systems(those who are not disrespectful/dismissive, of course)? Or is it too important that we all believe in Them/experience Them in similar ways? Can someone be a polytheist today and be an aethist? Id say absolutely because the word used in a pagan context describes a form of paganism not a literal belief system. Theres no reason someone cant follow an orthopraxic pagan 'path' and have personal beliefs. Especially considering the way polytheists legitimise their beliefs by placing them in context with socially recignised form of authority and the diminutisation of personal experience. It really places an emphasis on structure rather than belief and leaves the door wide open for agnosticism. Id say that while loads of groups would be unhappy with their members being aethist or agnostic that a lot of them probably are. Particularly because neopaganism is something people find when they are exploring spirituality and finding their place in society. Theres a lot of growth in that period of our lives and the social ties involved dont come to an end because opinions and beliefs change. For example I remember one of the big gaelic polytheist groups clannada na gaelica or something similar was run by monotheists for a while. Their emphasis was on community and culture and when beliefs changed those things were still more important. In the end other polytheist groups went mental and social pressures caused the people to leave, and since they were the driving force and did the admin work the group died. That poly only mentality ended things.
|
|
Drekfletch
New Member
Hellenic-ish polytheist in NH
Posts: 10
|
Post by Drekfletch on Nov 10, 2013 20:43:14 GMT -8
Can someone be a polytheist today and be an aethist? Id say absolutely because the word used in a pagan context describes a form of paganism not a literal belief system. This part I disagree with. By definition, Polytheism is the ideology that there are Many Gods, whereas Atheism is the ideology that there are No Gods. The two ideologies are opposites. Polytheists behave certain ways that are different from monotheists and monists and atheists etc.; it doesn't mean those activities are the definition of the term. It is a belief system; that happens to have distinctive associated actions. What you go on to describe isn't someone who is both, but someone who, though isn't, acts as if they were. Which, like you, I don't have a problem with.
|
|
|
Post by aclockworkireland on Nov 12, 2013 4:13:55 GMT -8
This part I disagree with. By definition, Polytheism is the ideology that there are Many Gods, whereas Atheism is the ideology that there are No Gods. The two ideologies are opposites. Id say that polytheism as a form of modern paganism is very different from historical or contemporary polytheism. The word isnt intended to indicate paganism. In fairness Id say very few people know about an orthopraxic club tradition when they hear the word.
|
|
|
Post by aclockworkireland on Nov 12, 2013 4:21:12 GMT -8
Is it important that we all experience the Gods in the same or even similar ways? Not in the slightest, that's always fairly cool when people have shared experiences of the gods and all but isn't required. I would say that its exceptionally important when paganism is affecting a culture, atleast if its going to be anything other than an affectation. For example, in Ireland we dont have a one on one relationship with anything spiritual as individuals. Whether its monotheism, polytheism, or the supernatural in general everything is communal and requires intercessors. Compare that with the common experience of the divine in america. When the two cultures meet how are things reconciled if theyre both fundamentally opposed in their understanding of deity? As things stand now in my experieince living in Ireland and north america theres a dismissiveness and condesention involved from both sides. Its important where a culture exists to have an understanding of the hallmarks of that culture and to either clearly match those hallmarks or reject them.
|
|
|
Post by Wynn Dark on Nov 13, 2013 11:26:14 GMT -8
I apologize for not using the quotation function of the board, but if I use the full reply format copy and paste isn't an option...no doubt because of some strange setting on this computer.
"Id say that polytheism as a form of modern paganism is very different from historical or contemporary polytheism. The word isn’t intended to indicate paganism." -aclockworkireland
Before I get too far down the rabbit hole, I'd like a clarification for the purpose of this conversation (and future conversations with you specifically aclockworkireland unless you indicate otherwise). What is your definition of polytheism and what is your definition of paganism, I realize that the latter definition tends to cause fits of momentary madness if the question is put out there in general, thus why I say for this specific conversation.
I ask for clarification because the way that you are using the terms seems different from my understanding of them in general.
Polytheism to me simply means the belief in multiple gods, with all manner of different forms of spirituality, religion and magic spawning from that. The key for me is that the word is implying a belief, rather than a mode of worship.
Paganism to me, is an umbrella term for a vast host of beliefs that is so inclusive as to practically have no meaning but let us say that it is a group of superficially similar religions, that are not one of the big three monotheisms (Judaism, Christianity and Islam intended).
I realize that last definition isn't everyone’s definition, but aclockworkireland you seem to have a very specific way that you are using the word and I would like to understand that before discussing the way it affects a culture.
|
|
|
Post by aclockworkireland on Nov 13, 2013 14:03:14 GMT -8
I apologize for not using the quotation function of the board, but if I use the full reply format copy and paste isn't an option...no doubt because of some strange setting on this computer. "Id say that polytheism as a form of modern paganism is very different from historical or contemporary polytheism. The word isn’t intended to indicate paganism." -aclockworkireland Before I get too far down the rabbit hole, I'd like a clarification for the purpose of this conversation (and future conversations with you specifically aclockworkireland unless you indicate otherwise). What is your definition of polytheism and what is your definition of paganism, I realize that the latter definition tends to cause fits of momentary madness if the question is put out there in general, thus why I say for this specific conversation. I ask for clarification because the way that you are using the terms seems different from my understanding of them in general. Polytheism to me simply means the belief in multiple gods, with all manner of different forms of spirituality, religion and magic spawning from that. The key for me is that the word is implying a belief, rather than a mode of worship. Paganism to me, is an umbrella term for a vast host of beliefs that is so inclusive as to practically have no meaning but let us say that it is a group of superficially similar religions, that are not one of the big three monotheisms (Judaism, Christianity and Islam intended). I realize that last definition isn't everyone’s definition, but aclockworkireland you seem to have a very specific way that you are using the word and I would like to understand that before discussing the way it affects a culture. I prefer to type in the same informal language I talk in Wynn. No insult intended. Im not trying to distinguish myself or avoid a rapport with you. I think cos paganism is such a tiny niche subject itd be rare that anyone would use a term like polytheism and think about the modern west and pagan paths. Theres even less hope that if they did consider modern pagan paths when they used the word that theyd think about an orthopraxy with magical names etc. Even less again that theyd consider the niche within a niche thats pagan polytheism. What theyll generally thing of? Imo because of the tradition/modernity dichotemy and theory of religious primitivism people are much more likely to think of historical romance for primitive religions and modern stuff like hinduism from the developing countries when they say polythiesm. They might at most use it to refer to folk cultures in the west, but thats the only western context theyre likely to give it. When I say paganism affects a culture, take the magical name thing, its a silly part of paganism so hopefully no one will get too upset over me saying its not culturally authentic. Take the way people change their names to gaelic. I already have an Irish sense of identity so I dont need to affect one by changing my name and because traditional culture involves a sense of continuity with the past I wont feel a greater connection to the past than I already have by changing my name. Only someone outside Ireland and from a culture founded on modernity will change their name like that and think its in any way authentic. When people here see that they cringe and theres a greater reason than identity. People might say they are only interested in medieval Ireland but thats only an excuse if the monocultures of 20th century nation states was an historical reality. Indigenous irish culture like all european cultures is multiethnic today and it was the same in the medieval. So the gaelic language is only one language spoken here historically. The manuscript trads (mythology, genealogy, philosophy, medical texts, contemporary poetry and prose as well as the bible) were not just written in numerous languages other than gaelic they have themes and motifs from world cultures. So if you look at things written in gaelic and imagine they are only from the ethnicity that speaks gaelic youre making a mistake. For example the merovingian dynasties origin myth is used in various conception stories. A semi divine being comes from the sea and has children with normal people who go on to rule a territory and use that otherworld/divine ancestry to legitimise their greater political ambitions. If you imagine gaelic is the language how likely are you to understand the myths youre using to fuel your polytheism? To me there is a distinction between pagan polytheism and the term polytheism and theres a distinction between paganism with an ethnic flavour and actual culture.
|
|
|
Post by aclockworkireland on Nov 13, 2013 14:28:40 GMT -8
Oh and paganism in general is the one thing to me because while some people might feel what they do is unprecidented thats a product of how their culture sees the world, nothing is self concieving. It all has parentage and inherited traits. Paganisms history is documented by ronald hutton in books like the triumph of the moon.
|
|