Talking to the Spirits: Personal Gnosis in Pagan Religion

So it's that time, time to discuss the introduction and first chapter of Talking to the Spirits. If there are a large number of those reading along that haven't been able to get a hold of the book to read this first section, let me know and we'll look at backing the discussion up a little. Otherwise I recommend that we discuss chapter two come next Friday...now, with that bit out of the way, back to the topic at hand.

To me the introduction is practically a call to action, or a dare, to reach for gnosis, to reach out for that two-way connection with the Gods and hopefully attain it (eventually). I happen to agree with the notion that to have real Gods is to at some point have that interaction or at least to be truly open to having that interaction, no matter what shape it ultimately comes in.

So why is gnosis important? I think the first chapter gives a decent coverage of that, and yes I think that a religion that shuts the door on any and all gnosis Is dead, or possibly worse it's play acting. Do any of you vehemently (or mildly) disagree that gnosis is important to personal spirituality, is gnosis just people making stuff up in their heads, or is it actually the beating heart that gives a body of tradition life?

What does everyone think about how the authors have gotten multiple voices from the polytheist community to contribute to the book? While I don't think any of the various speakers have yet clashed that heavily in their views, there are definite differences and I think on a subject like this it speaks well of the authors to have reached out as they have done. While I'm sure there was still a good bit of editing as to who got into the book (though I have no actual knowledge as to how that process went) showing views that differ from their own makes the book a healthier discussion, in my opinion.

While I don't see there being a whole lot of meat to the first section, since I essentially agree with it and found myself nodding along to the passages, I'm sure there are those (maybe not here) that would react to it with something like revelation, or be reviled by the very thought of gnosis.

So, what did everyone else think, anything that you all find particularly quotable that needs brought to the group's attention? (Can anyone tell that I've never tried to lead a discussion like this before?)

I just got the book and am looking forward to joining in the discussion!  Thanks so much for organizing this, Wynn Dark!

That would be a grand bumper sticker indeed. I think it might get the wrong sort of attention in my neck of the woods, but that's nothing new under the sun.

Chapter 1
More about definitions of UPG and how it is imp. Talks about book learning vs having interactions with Gods or spirits. I will disagree with Raenshadoe, I don't think having a guide is going to stop you from understanding delusion vs UPG. Just because someone is experienced doesn't mean they are a good guide.

moonwolf23 I think that your picking up on the bias of the authors is a good thing, and their tendency to point and go "Christians are bad" is indicative of a common problem within Polytheism and Paganism, though from what I've seen there is a tendency to be slightly less "Christians Bad, Pagan Good" in the ranks of the various Polytheist religions it's definitely still prevalent. History shows that the various branches of Christianity have been used for ill and for good pretty much since the beginning I'd say...but there has always and will always be (cynical note) violence in the name of religion, it's an element of humanity as old as the hills.

If you ever get the chance to (if you haven't) reading up on the Gnostics is, interesting, they definitely fall into the 'this world is evil' trap (or so I see it) but their take on things (as far as we know them) is worth browsing through at any rate. There is also a Neo-Gnostic movement which is far less about the world being evil and has it's own interesting takes on things...from what I've seen they tend to focus on their God in a way much more familiar to Polytheists that are open to Gnosis than to your typical Church on Sunday Christian.

As for Chapter 2: I find the definitions for UPG vs PCPG to be highly useful, though I think that it's important that PCPG be the same gnosis gained by different people separately from one another, as opposed to people just agreeing with someone's gnosis...which is brought up by the authors as an important distinction.

I too am rather fond of the bolded list of things the Gods might say to mortals, it gives a lot to think about and is possibly mind opening to those that may never have considered some of the items. Especially the bit where the Gods aren't here to hold up your ego. I think the fact that they aren't necessarily concerned with their worshippers consent is something that distinctly colors mythology and to some extent the morals of various Polytheistic religions.


Edit: I don't have my copy of the book handy, but I know I book marked several passages, I'll go back and see if there was something else I specifically wanted to bring up and put it in for discussion.

So, it's that time again.

Chapter three (short and sweet, is the fact that we're going by short chapters helping everyone keep up?) more or less sums up just how hard it is to actually describe personal gnosis. Having had a gut-level feel that 'this over here is right' before with the Gods (Priapus in this case) I can understand how hard it is to try to explain where this or that connection comes from, even if I don't have a lot of such experience.

I also relate to what Raenshadoe says about much of their gnosis being the '"adoption of ideas", though I've not nearly the confidence that Raenshadoe does in that exactly counting as a 'divine download'.

Still, it's what I've got for the most part...other than increadibly rare 'Great Dreams' that are more clue-by-four than subtle bread crumbs.

While I think they get it right in that some things the Gods just want us to experience, I'm sure if it had to happen the 'sky opening up, voice in the skull, leaves you curled in wheeping ball on the floor' sort of gnosis happens too.

Personal Gnosis an interesting chapter. It is poking me to write a blog on how I discern my voice from theirs. WHat I have right now is I sound like a gibbering monkey when I am full of need, and they have a patience, a long view that they impose on me through their voice.