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Post by Wynn Dark on Nov 15, 2013 6:16:03 GMT -8
I think we might be talking around one another, but perhaps that's the best way to come to a better understanding. No offense has been given and none have been taken out of the ether, no worries there at all.
In this case the way we are looking at things through our respective culture's lens is decidedly flavoring how we're using various words. I myself am not a grand student of the pagan movement's history, a shortcoming in my self-education there and one that I'll eventually get around to resolving (my house is a library, with many books yet to have been read and much to do other than read).
I think that when I say polytheism I'm meaning what you say when you qualify it as pagan polytheism, the thought that polytheism alone wouldn't mean such to the over-culture (either in the America or in Ireland) hadn't really occurred to me. I suppose that is largely in part because I've never heard the word outside of pagan discourse, the word the over-culture here would use is just pagan (usually with some fire and brimstone behind it).
Perhaps I was a bit too flippant when I said that experiencing the gods in a similar manner isn't important, even within the context of 'does one have to actually Believe in the gods to worship them or is it more important to practice the culture' to paraphrase, how one experiences the gods is more important than I made it out to be.
I was just trying to cut past that end of the discussion to make my point, a fault I often don't see until someone points it out to me. While I stand by the idea that to worship the gods you do have to belief in them or you're just pretending (with all the caveats I've mentioned before), how one's religion affects a culture Is an interesting subject and I can absolutely see how one experiences the gods being pivotal to that discussion.
My beliefs are heavily influenced by the practices and mythology of the ancient Greeks, the Romans and here and there several other peoples from the Mediterranean, but I am not from any of those cultures that I draw upon to form my beliefs...I may have ancestry that was, but I personally am not. So yes, I'll have a very different take on things than the ancients did, I can try to understand their culture(s) enough to get a vague idea of how they saw the world, but my beliefs and practices will always be for this day, this age, and stamped with the culture I was born into. I'm alright with that, chances are that my beliefs won't ever get passed on to the next generation (at least not by blood) for a host of reasons, I can live with that as well, so chances are I won't be directly affecting a culture on a large scale and only affect the culture (as it were) of my tiny community (which currently consists of my wife, myself, our critters, and the local spirits and dead...tentatively on those last two).
However, since we're on the topic of how two different cultures interact on the level of belief (I think?), how would a communal and a modern individualist culture interact...with great care and respect if they want anything to actually come of it, would be my guess. I know that isn't getting into the nitty gritty, but I've not yet had enough caffeine and am afraid I've rambled on again as it is.
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Erin
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Practotioner of the Creideamh Si and flamekeeper/priestess of Brigit.
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Post by Erin on Nov 16, 2013 20:40:43 GMT -8
I would say that its exceptionally important when paganism is affecting a culture, atleast if its going to be anything other than an affectation. For example, in Ireland we dont have a one on one relationship with anything spiritual as individuals. Whether its monotheism, polytheism, or the supernatural in general everything is communal and requires intercessors. Compare that with the common experience of the divine in america. I find this a very interesting distinction you are making. Can you talk a little bit about that communal aspect, and who you see the intercessors being in terms of polytheism and the supernatural, particularly from your Irish frame of reference? Thanks. I am intrigued.
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Post by aclockworkireland on Nov 20, 2013 4:21:19 GMT -8
However, since we're on the topic of how two different cultures interact on the level of belief (I think?), how would a communal and a modern individualist culture interact...with great care and respect if they want anything to actually come of it, would be my guess. I know that isn't getting into the nitty gritty, but I've not yet had enough caffeine and am afraid I've rambled on again as it is. The tradition/modernity dichotemy is a theory not a practical reality so every culture in the west has common ground to work from. In practice all cultures in the west are a bit traditional and all cultures are influenced by modernity and emphasising the common ground and taking time to know people works well in my experience. The problem for us as pagans is our cultures meet online where meaning is transmitted through a very limiting medium and we only consume each others cultures as a commodity rather than experiencing them first hand. Its important to realise that we are from different cultures and vastly different no matter how similar we seem in text. Its important to take time to build relationships even in a perfect medium like face to face communication if we want to understand another culture and because text is our linguafranca our medium is far from perfect. It doesnt transmit the nuances of speech well and it definately cant impart culture. Our medium of communication isnt just limiting its alien to our cultures so less gets transmitted because how you converse in each culture is different. Youve to follow social conventions and ritualised behaviours or casual conversation doesnt happen. To get casual conversation in Italy you have to sit and eat out for lunch or eat dinner in someones home. Here in Ireland you have to drink either tea in someones home or a pint in a bar. Its a ritualised behavior and there are rules to how you do both to avoid being uncultured or insulting. We cant do things like that online so we are already in a situation where casual conversation is alien and falling back on formalised speech means we have even more rules and behaviors that need to be followed to avoid offense. Text online is not a great way of communicating. The best thing to do is sit down and take long periods of time to talk to each other. And that is an effort when we can go out the door and meet other pagans for discussion to flow much easier. Its something especially important in polytheism. I remember the hellenes had a touchstone with the 'ethnikoi' in Greece but there was a huge falling out because people in America spent more time online learning about greek culture than greeks did learning about american culture and naturally americans wanted to run the online groups. But thats was taken as a sign of an insulting sense of propriatory ownership of greek culture by greek people and they wouldnt have it. There was no communication. If theyd both learned about each others cultures instead of just being interested in paganism theyd have gotten on.
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Post by aclockworkireland on Nov 20, 2013 4:47:01 GMT -8
I find this a very interesting distinction you are making. Can you talk a little bit about that communal aspect, and who you see the intercessors being in terms of polytheism and the supernatural, particularly from your Irish frame of reference? Thanks. I am intrigued. Sure like in the medieval the kings had no administrative duties other than leading the warband. Their duties were entirely ritual and they lived their lives according to a series of taboos and privilages. The important thing for a king was having the quality of firinn, a semi divine nature inherited from an ancestral deity that enabled them to act as intermediaries for the tribe with the otherworld. The king ritually married a tutelary goddess at his inauguration and through her he made the crops grow, the cattle fertile and the tribe expanded. Firinn visibly manifests in physical perfection and if a king was in any way flawed though the otherworld would turn against the tribe and all those things would fail. I personally dont believe druids existed but the class they belonged to would be another example of intercessors. The nemed or sacred classes of poets, lawyers and christian monks etc. Held special status in Brehon Law. They were protectors and distributers of otherworld knowlege. The poets for example were especially involved with inspiration from the otherworld, when they were imposed on they mimmicked the Heron who protects the homes of gods in medieval lit calling down a curse standing on one leg, pointing with one arm and looking through one eye. The poets were around until the 16th century and weve got saints naturally who are intercessors. But in contemporary secular/folk culture we have wise people like the bean feassa who act as intermediaries between us and the fairies when they personify the forces of nature. If your animal is sick for example you go do the wise person who tells you what youve done to upset the fairies and what should be done to fix the problem. We dont go one on one with deities or any supernatural thing. We have sets of taboos that avoid it. In terms of modern neopaganism that translates into how people experience a deities call and how people commune with deity. If you pick up books written by irish people you can see how a call drives people in groups to heritage sites where the deity is immanent. Some people end up down in muddy caves, some up on hills with no plan to meet there and possibly never having met each other before. Deities tend to want something here, to make a deal, they arent buddies and the type of one on one relationship that pagans in other cultures have doesnt seem to translate well for us. Sitting in your livingroom at an alter talking to a god in your head one on one is a product of another culture. Where the land has no sacred meaning anymore and individualism is the norm.
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Post by Wynn Dark on Nov 20, 2013 7:42:18 GMT -8
aclockworkireland said: "But in contemporary secular/folk culture we have wise people like the bean feassa who act as intermediaries between us and the fairies when they personify the forces of nature. If your animal is sick for example you go do the wise person who tells you what youve done to upset the fairies and what should be done to fix the problem."
Ironically it isn't the pagan (me) in my household that would be the one folk would ask what they have done to upset the fae, my Christ following wife (yes it makes for interesting conversations) would be but then she's usually the one that goes and leaves them things and can see them (as much as it is right to call it seeing).
aclockworkireland said: "In terms of modern neopaganism that translates into how people experience a deities call and how people commune with deity. If you pick up books written by irish people you can see how a call drives people in groups to heritage sites where the deity is immanent. Some people end up down in muddy caves, some up on hills with no plan to meet there and possibly never having met each other before. Deities tend to want something here, to make a deal, they arent buddies and the type of one on one relationship that pagans in other cultures have doesnt seem to translate well for us. Sitting in your livingroom at an alter talking to a god in your head one on one is a product of another culture. Where the land has no sacred meaning anymore and individualism is the norm."
I must admit that the idea of a group of people being drawn by a god to a place such as those you've described for whatever purpose sounds like it'd be an amazing and possibly terrifiying experience...not that the latter is inherently a bad thing. Never having been called in such a way I admit that I fall into the sitting (or kneeling, or standing) in front of an alter in my living room (okay the only room) praying to my gods...though prayer isn't a back and forth for me unless there is actual divination going on with prayers and offerings coiled around said divination.
My alter is primarely for my ancestors though, there was some mention in the ancestor post about you having a relationship with an ancestor aclockworkireland, would such a relationship be common in Ireland in a one on one sort of way or is that still more a communal instance?
Your culture's emphasis (if it is right to call it such) on the land having sacred meaning has always drawn me and more so now that I'm a homesteader, on an admittedly much abused piece of land that we (my wife and I) are doing our best to improve both in terms of fertility and in how the spirits (both fae and dead) of the place react to people. It may seem odd for a man who worships the Theoi to have such an interest in the fae, but in my household having some form of interaction with them is simply a day to day part of life. So in keeping with the initial topic of this thread, I not only believe in the fae, I have reason to go past just believing in them to 'well of course they exist, they are just as much a part of reality as the human neighbors are'.
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Erin
New Member
Practotioner of the Creideamh Si and flamekeeper/priestess of Brigit.
Posts: 40
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Post by Erin on Nov 23, 2013 8:46:18 GMT -8
I find this a very interesting distinction you are making. Can you talk a little bit about that communal aspect, and who you see the intercessors being in terms of polytheism and the supernatural, particularly from your Irish frame of reference? Thanks. I am intrigued. Sure like in the medieval the kings had no administrative duties other than leading the warband. Their duties were entirely ritual and they lived their lives according to a series of taboos and privilages. The important thing for a king was having the quality of firinn, a semi divine nature inherited from an ancestral deity that enabled them to act as intermediaries for the tribe with the otherworld. The king ritually married a tutelary goddess at his inauguration and through her he made the crops grow, the cattle fertile and the tribe expanded. Firinn visibly manifests in physical perfection and if a king was in any way flawed though the otherworld would turn against the tribe and all those things would fail. I personally dont believe druids existed but the class they belonged to would be another example of intercessors. The nemed or sacred classes of poets, lawyers and christian monks etc. Held special status in Brehon Law. They were protectors and distributers of otherworld knowlege. The poets for example were especially involved with inspiration from the otherworld, when they were imposed on they mimmicked the Heron who protects the homes of gods in medieval lit calling down a curse standing on one leg, pointing with one arm and looking through one eye. The poets were around until the 16th century and weve got saints naturally who are intercessors. But in contemporary secular/folk culture we have wise people like the bean feassa who act as intermediaries between us and the fairies when they personify the forces of nature. If your animal is sick for example you go do the wise person who tells you what youve done to upset the fairies and what should be done to fix the problem. We dont go one on one with deities or any supernatural thing. We have sets of taboos that avoid it. In terms of modern neopaganism that translates into how people experience a deities call and how people commune with deity. If you pick up books written by irish people you can see how a call drives people in groups to heritage sites where the deity is immanent. Some people end up down in muddy caves, some up on hills with no plan to meet there and possibly never having met each other before. Deities tend to want something here, to make a deal, they arent buddies and the type of one on one relationship that pagans in other cultures have doesnt seem to translate well for us. Sitting in your livingroom at an alter talking to a god in your head one on one is a product of another culture. Where the land has no sacred meaning anymore and individualism is the norm. OK, thanks for illustrating that point. I would agree with all of those presented instances, yes. But how would you characterize the votive nature of some of the native traditions, like visiting wells and leaving items or rags, or leaving out food for the faeries or for the ancestors? Or hearing the bean sí keening for a family member? Does that indicate some sense of operating without an intercessor at times, to your mind? I agree it is unlike modern neopaganism, as that is based on ceremonial magic's concepts and worldview, primarily. And how about how a person does relate with a place? That can be a very one-on-one visceral experience,and people today can re-enchant their landscapes, engage with a mythic concept in any landscape, see it invested with sacred meaning. I know I do, where I live. Does that represent some kind of exception, or does the land itself become an intercessor in such instances? I'd also love to hear more about your ideas about not believing the druids existed. This idea has come up in another group I am in and I am finding the discussion fascinating.
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Post by aclockworkireland on Nov 24, 2013 14:04:23 GMT -8
Wynn Dark Said: "Ironically it isn't the pagan (me) in my household that would be the one folk would ask what they have done to upset the fae, my Christ following wife (yes it makes for interesting conversations) would be but then she's usually the one that goes and leaves them things and can see them (as much as it is right to call it seeing). "
Thats generally the way it is here too, a belief in fairies in european culture is generally secular folk tradition practiced by christians. Do your wifes friends or family see a conflict between her own religion and fairies? I think as pagans we look at folk culture for stuff that might fit with beliefs or inspire them but ultimately those things arent pagan, theyre just interesting secular folk beliefs that seem to stand out as unusual to modernists like us.
Wynn Dark Said: "My alter is primarely for my ancestors though, there was some mention in the ancestor post about you having a relationship with an ancestor aclockworkireland, would such a relationship be common in Ireland in a one on one sort of way or is that still more a communal instance?"
My interest in bran mac maelmordha is modernist neopaganism. Theres nothing wrong with being modern in my opinion, some of its good and some parts of trad life are pretty bad.
A way to spot paganism is anything thats passed outside living memory (roughly 3 generations) is modernist stuff. Folk culture relies on folk memory. The way I treat Bran mac maelmordha wouldnt make sense in trad culture because he died centuries ago. Theres no one to vouch for him, hes an outsider cos of that not held to our taboos, he couldve been a pedo and I wouldnt know. I only know about him cos I read about him in a book.
Wynn Dark Said: "Your culture's emphasis (if it is right to call it such) on the land having sacred meaning has always drawn me and more so now that I'm a homesteader, on an admittedly much abused piece of land that we (my wife and I) are doing our best to improve both in terms of fertility and in how the spirits (both fae and dead) of the place react to people. It may seem odd for a man who worships the Theoi to have such an interest in the fae, but in my household having some form of interaction with them is simply a day to day part of life. So in keeping with the initial topic of this thread, I not only believe in the fae, I have reason to go past just believing in them to 'well of course they exist, they are just as much a part of reality as the human neighbors are'. "
That sounds amazing Wynn. Id imagine its hard going living another way of life when you could just move to a city and have the immidiate gratification of consumerism. Do you have to kill your own animals for food? Im happy enough to eat free range chicken but pulling their knecks freaks me out. Im too used to animals as pets. Im in the same boat where fairies are concerned, Ive one foot in modernity and one in Tradition, I know fairies serve a social and psychological purpose in trad culture but I also believe they exist like I believe the sun is going to come up tomorrow. Lifes not black and white sometimes.
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Post by Wynn Dark on Nov 25, 2013 6:27:44 GMT -8
aclockworkireland said: "Do your wifes friends or family see a conflict between her own religion and fairies?"
Her friends do not, her family would probably give serious thought to throwing her in a fire but are too polite for that so would just shun her for four or five years then pretend anything that doesn't fit their image of her didn't happen. That is the voice of experience, her family makes the Puritans look like hard drinking, orgy having, hallucinogen eating peace and love sorts of people.
aclockworkireland said: "That sounds amazing Wynn. Id imagine its hard going living another way of life when you could just move to a city and have the immidiate gratification of consumerism. Do you have to kill your own animals for food? Im happy enough to eat free range chicken but pulling their knecks freaks me out. Im too used to animals as pets."
It isn't as 'woo' as it might sound but it does occasionally strike me that what I consider normal is really really Not to most people, including the land lord and most of our (if not all of our) human neighbors. There might actually be more interaction with the Other Neighbors if the history of the property wasn't so nasty, though at least some of them seem to be grudgingly accepting of us for our efforts.
As for the animals, not at the moment, I've been too busy to go through the process of getting a hunting license here, let alone go on the hunt. We also don't have the property set up for raising animals yet though we have plans to raise a sizable mixed flock of chicken, guinea hens, and Muscovy ducks, along with rabbits and a small herd of dairy goats, Pygmy or Kinders most likely.
aclockworkireland said: "Im in the same boat where fairies are concerned, Ive one foot in modernity and one in Tradition, I know fairies serve a social and psychological purpose in trad culture but I also believe they exist like I believe the sun is going to come up tomorrow. Lifes not black and white sometimes."
Yeah, when it comes to the fae, the Dead and the Gods I find that such is the case.
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Post by aclockworkireland on Nov 25, 2013 10:27:46 GMT -8
OK, thanks for illustrating that point. I would agree with all of those presented instances, yes. But how would you characterize the votive nature of some of the native traditions, like visiting wells and leaving items or rags, or leaving out food for the faeries or for the ancestors? Or hearing the bean sí keening for a family member? Does that indicate some sense of operating without an intercessor at times, to your mind? I agree it is unlike modern neopaganism, as that is based on ceremonial magic's concepts and worldview, primarily. And how about how a person does relate with a place? That can be a very one-on-one visceral experience,and people today can re-enchant their landscapes, engage with a mythic concept in any landscape, see it invested with sacred meaning. I know I do, where I live. Does that represent some kind of exception, or does the land itself become an intercessor in such instances? I'd also love to hear more about your ideas about not believing the druids existed. This idea has come up in another group I am in and I am finding the discussion fascinating. What do you mean by votive nature Erin? Can you tell me how youd reenchant a place? Id say that most of that stuff is catholic or traditional so itd require intercessors or itd involve a shared way of looking at life and shared symbols both to understand and articulate experience. While you might be alone when you hear a banshee or be at a heritage site on your own it doesnt mean youre experiencing those things as an individual, [both the idea of the banshee and sacredness in the landscape only function within a framework of traditions] youd expect to have a similar experience to anyone else and youd explain it in ways people could understand because youre drawing from the same pool of comunally constructed meaning. Like the banshee for example, hearing a banshee might seem like an individual thing but nothing in the banshees origins or functions involves individualism. It is a part of a single social occasion/rite of passage and only performs its function in that setting. Youd never expect to hear a banshee except when someone dies. The banshee is the embodiment of the fear of death in trad culture and she shares in the symbols of death and mourning common at a wake. Like the banshee has long hair and throws her comb at you to kill you, the keeners are the only adults in traditional culture who wear their long hair down. They are known for their keening cry oloooloooolooo and the banshees are known for theirs. The reason the banshees scream is frightening while the keeners is sad is its the fear of death incarnate. To someone who doesnt interpret long hair as mourning and doesnt know about the keeners cry its not obvious what a banshees function is. Banshees actually perform a theraputic function for the community, at a wake someone can say retrospectively they heard the banshee so the death isnt unexpected. It lessens the trauma in a society where therapists dont exist by helping the community cope with the loss of one of its members just like the rest of the wake trads. Outside that setting hearing a banshee is meaningless and you wouldnt expect to hear one in any other context. Its difficult for me to imagine an individualist context for the banshee where itd be constructed from an individuals personal view of death and the symbols they associate with it. It could come out as a shinigami from the bleach manga or some other pop culture figure. Marylin manson with a scythe trapped in a haunting tv screen. I think experiencing the sacred in the landscape is communal for the same reason as experiencing the banshee except its a much more complex idea than a single rite of passage. So its even harder to imagine an individualist context for it. Even if you are alone on the heritage site, youll still expect to have similar experiences and to articulate that experience in a way other members of your culture will understand because again you look at life the same way and draw on the same things to create meaning from experience but in a much more communal way. How trad cultures view their landscape is a result of psychological, economic and geographical stresses. Those things influence how people view the landscape, and creates the culture with its sets of symbols and meanings that are used to describe the landscape and their experience of it. Individualism is a part of modernity and modernity involved the desacralisation of the traditional landscape, an instrumentalisation of geography dividing the sacred and mundane into unitary and empirical terms. Sacred only exists within within the framework of tradition and that reminds me of something Ive noticed in paganism thats relevant. Paganism makes a holy land out of pristine wilderness, but in traditional terms that type of thing really is a wilderness, a desert of meaning. Without people there to experience the landscape and create meaning from it a river is only a river, a mountain is only a mountain. The concept of a sacred place being somewhere with lots of energy isnt a traditional one. Heritage sites are built on mountain tops, ridges, valleys, beside rivers and caves. Its the geography and its meaning within the ritual landscape that decides whether something is sacred or not. People that talk about energy at heritage sites might be describing an experience of deity in pagan terms but they defo arent doing it in trad terms.
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Erin
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Practotioner of the Creideamh Si and flamekeeper/priestess of Brigit.
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Post by Erin on Nov 26, 2013 9:40:49 GMT -8
What do you mean by votive nature Erin? Can you tell me how youd reenchant a place? Id say that most of that stuff is catholic or traditional so itd require intercessors or itd involve a shared way of looking at life and shared symbols both to understand and articulate experience. While you might be alone when you hear a banshee or be at a heritage site on your own it doesnt mean youre experiencing those things as an individual, [both the idea of the banshee and sacredness in the landscape only function within a framework of traditions] youd expect to have a similar experience to anyone else and youd explain it in ways people could understand because youre drawing from the same pool of comunally constructed meaning. Like the banshee for example, hearing a banshee might seem like an individual thing but nothing in the banshees origins or functions involves individualism. It is a part of a single social occasion/rite of passage and only performs its function in that setting. Youd never expect to hear a banshee except when someone dies. The banshee is the embodiment of the fear of death in trad culture and she shares in the symbols of death and mourning common at a wake. Like the banshee has long hair and throws her comb at you to kill you, the keeners are the only adults in traditional culture who wear their long hair down. They are known for their keening cry oloooloooolooo and the banshees are known for theirs. The reason the banshees scream is frightening while the keeners is sad is its the fear of death incarnate. To someone who doesnt interpret long hair as mourning and doesnt know about the keeners cry its not obvious what a banshees function is. Banshees actually perform a theraputic function for the community, at a wake someone can say retrospectively they heard the banshee so the death isnt unexpected. It lessens the trauma in a society where therapists dont exist by helping the community cope with the loss of one of its members just like the rest of the wake trads. Outside that setting hearing a banshee is meaningless and you wouldnt expect to hear one in any other context. Its difficult for me to imagine an individualist context for the banshee where itd be constructed from an individuals personal view of death and the symbols they associate with it. It could come out as a shinigami from the bleach manga or some other pop culture figure. Marylin manson with a scythe trapped in a haunting tv screen. I think experiencing the sacred in the landscape is communal for the same reason as experiencing the banshee except its a much more complex idea than a single rite of passage. So its even harder to imagine an individualist context for it. Even if you are alone on the heritage site, youll still expect to have similar experiences and to articulate that experience in a way other members of your culture will understand because again you look at life the same way and draw on the same things to create meaning from experience but in a much more communal way. How trad cultures view their landscape is a result of psychological, economic and geographical stresses. Those things influence how people view the landscape, and creates the culture with its sets of symbols and meanings that are used to describe the landscape and their experience of it. Individualism is a part of modernity and modernity involved the desacralisation of the traditional landscape, an instrumentalisation of geography dividing the sacred and mundane into unitary and empirical terms. Sacred only exists within within the framework of tradition and that reminds me of something Ive noticed in paganism thats relevant. Paganism makes a holy land out of pristine wilderness, but in traditional terms that type of thing really is a wilderness, a desert of meaning. Without people there to experience the landscape and create meaning from it a river is only a river, a mountain is only a mountain. The concept of a sacred place being somewhere with lots of energy isnt a traditional one. Heritage sites are built on mountain tops, ridges, valleys, beside rivers and caves. Its the geography and its meaning within the ritual landscape that decides whether something is sacred or not. People that talk about energy at heritage sites might be describing an experience of deity in pagan terms but they defo arent doing it in trad terms. Yes, I am aware of the communal nature of meaning, but that was not the gist of my question. I was asking about the nature of intercessors. If one is -experiencing- something directly, is an intercessor involved, or must one be? Hearing a banshee does not require an -intercessor- to hear her, one just hears her, when she is keening, at the time at which she would do so. There was no intercessor required in order to be able to have that interaction or experience. So might one concur that there are instances in which intercessors are not integral to a traditional type of experience in this regard? None of what I am describing has anything to do with individualism, I am not at all referring to that concept here, or to the pop culture references you made (not all of which I am familiar with anyway). And then there is the question of how one becomes an intercessor in faery traditions- how does one end up having those direct experiences, like Thomas Rhymer did, or the fellows who were lead by a faery into the hills to make music and came out a hundred years later, or Biddy Early have her experiences which lead her to becoming a bean feassa whom others then went to for intercession with the faeries? Somehow some direct, non-intercessory experiences took place within the traditional framework. One can see that these don't happen to everybody, it is true, but then, those chosen seemed to not have anything especially different about them from others either, they rather represent the everyman or everywoman. So I wonder about that too, from the traditional point of view. I agree with what you say about a people making meaning out of their landscape and that this is what designates sacred spaces. This is also what I mean about enchanting a place- same idea. Or how someone in another land who is connecting with the traditions can enchant their own lands with those traditional concepts, like knowing i Scottish Gaelic tradition that the Cailleach is associated with Ben Nevis, the largest mountain in the area, and then looking out from my porch and seeing Mt St Helens, or Loowit, as the natives call her, and connecting the Cailleach with that mountain where I live, the way the people had done in Scotland with their mountain. My overculture here says that is a chunk of rock, a dormant volcano, a part of dead earth, but through the lens of my ancestral culture I see that it is now wearing the white hair of the old woman and the queen of winter is here now. Thus I reenchant my landscape, and make sacred spaces and meaning from it. Before, to the Euro-American mindset, it was just a mountain named after some dude, and now to me and my similarly-minded friends here, it is the embodiment of the seasons through the story of the Cailleach, which also looks like a lovely young woman in the summer when she isn't white and snow-covered. I share this idea with others so it is communal, and we draw on the same traditions together, so the tradition is foundational. I imagine immigrants to the new world would have brought their worldview and stories with them in similar manner and there may be cultural evidence of it in those communities on the east coast. Which makes me wonder further- in this sense, for the people, does the land itself become and act as an intercessor between them and the powers with which they are associated and which they embody? Does tradition approach sacred sites in that vein in your experience? Is that what you see going on when you talk about the land and sacred places drawing the people there and then the gods wanting something- is that the land/sacred space acting as an intercessor between the people and the gods? The votive nature I refer to is making offerings to bodies of water, tying rags on clootie trees, leaving flowers on sacred hills, etc. These appear to be examples of people interacting with the powers on their own without an intercessor, within the bounds of the tradition. Still curious to hear your thoughts about the druids; maybe it needs its own thread?
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Post by aclockworkireland on Nov 26, 2013 17:11:23 GMT -8
Wynn Dark said: 'It isn't as 'woo' as it might sound but it does occasionally strike me that what I consider normal is really really Not to most people, including the land lord and most of our (if not all of our) human neighbors. There might actually be more interaction with the Other Neighbors if the history of the property wasn't so nasty, though at least some of them seem to be grudgingly accepting of us for our efforts.'
What happened on the property that people are afraid of it Wynn? That sounds odd.
I lived out in rural ireland for a few years and being from Dublin it was an uphill struggle with people. They consider Dublin people jackeens, a sort of charming but sly, smart but sneaky, not-like-us type. I was lucky though, I could say my great grandad had a farm in the area and they begrudgingly accepted me as an oddball local. Id say I could be there my whole life and theyd still remember I wasnt from there tho.
I planned to build an eco home out there with a bit of land for chickens and cows but I never went through with it. Youve more balls than i do.
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Post by aclockworkireland on Nov 26, 2013 18:21:08 GMT -8
Erin Said 'Yes, I am aware of the communal nature of meaning, but that was not the gist of my question. I was asking about the nature of intercessors. If one is -experiencing- something directly, is an intercessor involved, or must one be? '
Yes in all interactions with the divine or supernatural Id say an intercessor is required. Id say that intercessors are a product of the communal nature of traditional culture. It doesnt have to be a priest or a saint but you always have to refer to an external authority even folk stories have to be supported by a recignised social authority because the individual is insignificant and impotant when identity is communally defined and supported. Someone will always say I got this from my grandmother, or johnny story knower the honest guy said his mother told him this. I saw or I heared has no value. I can do only has value in what it can do for others. Personal gain, ego etc is considered a social ill that the fairies will inevitably punish you for in stories.
Erin Said 'This is also what I mean about enchanting a place- same idea. Or how someone in another land who is connecting with the traditions can enchant their own lands with those traditional concepts, like knowing i Scottish Gaelic tradition that the Cailleach is associated with Ben Nevis, the largest mountain in the area, and then looking out from my porch and seeing Mt St Helens, or Loowit, as the natives call her, and connecting the Cailleach with that mountain where I live, the way the people had done in Scotland with their mountain.'
Thats interesting way of sacralising the mountain I expected a sort of conscecrating with rituals, but does that make it sacred to you and not sacred culturally? Like I know mountains mean x but unless everyone thinks mountains mean x and not y or z does x make it sacred in the culture?
Erin Said 'Which makes me wonder further- in this sense, for the people, does the land itself become and act as an intercessor between them and the powers with which they are associated and which they embody? Does tradition approach sacred sites in that vein in your experience? Is that what you see going on when you talk about the land and sacred places drawing the people there and then the gods wanting something- is that the land/sacred space acting as an intercessor between the people and the gods?'
Is the land an intercessor I wouldnt say so no, but the personifications of the forces of nature on the land can be. Like the Irish cultic cailleach makes the crops grow so the people save the last sheaf from the rain to get her to grow the crops the next year.
The thing with people going to heritage sites is deities are immanent in the geography, they are the land and you can see it in place names. You have to go to them to meet them and you cant expect to see them outside that geography. Like the Brig is in the brigantes territory in the blackstairs mountains in wexford but Aoibhel is in the Slieve Aughty mountains in Clare. Theyre both immanent in the mountains and rivers that spring there and you wont go to wexford and find Aoibhel or Clare and find the Brig.
Erin said 'The votive nature I refer to is making offerings to bodies of water, tying rags on clootie trees, leaving flowers on sacred hills, etc. These appear to be examples of people interacting with the powers on their own without an intercessor, within the bounds of the tradition.'
I cant talk about clooties or flowers Im not scottish, itd be like an italian telling you about spain. I could say stuff about history that i read in books but I wouldnt have a clue about folk culture. Here holy well stuff involves a saint and fairy trees involve fairies youre asking them to sort things for you. Other things like cursing or curing stones, putting butter on gates, buring eggs in the soil or piseog bags are secular and involve the concept of luck involved in the evil eye trad its has no more to do with deity or the supernatural or the forces of nature than the maloik \m/
The druid stuff is just an interesting bit of Irish history for me I wouldnt be up for discussing it in a pagan context. Im generally happy to meet druids and they deserve as much respect for what they do online as the do in person. Theres one here who councils people through illnesses, miscarriages, the grief of death, he visits the dying in hospital all over the country and celebrates births and marriages and even got pagan marriage recignised here. I havent got a bad word to say about pagan Druids.
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Post by Wynn Dark on Nov 27, 2013 6:26:49 GMT -8
aclockworkireland said: "What happened on the property that people are afraid of it Wynn? That sounds odd."
Sorry I was using a bit of slang that I think got misunderstood, by 'woo' I didn't mean scary I just meant it isn't all Hollywood Fireworks and Lightning Oooh and Ahh...granted actually coming up against a fae in my experience has always come with more than a little fear, whether it's because I don't generally see them or just the Otherness they exude.
The property doesn't scare the locals Enough unfortunately, if it did they might show more respect. Most of the fae on the property do Not like people and a few of them I think would be more than capable of doing harm if they decided to do so, but for the most part they are on parts of the property that the locals stay off of even when they decide to ignore the property lines and wander about.
aclockworkireland said: "I lived out in rural ireland for a few years and being from Dublin it was an uphill struggle with people. They consider Dublin people jackeens, a sort of charming but sly, smart but sneaky, not-like-us type. I was lucky though, I could say my great grandad had a farm in the area and they begrudgingly accepted me as an oddball local. Id say I could be there my whole life and theyd still remember I wasnt from there tho."
Oh our human neighbors think we're crazy city folk, those that have gotten out of their bottles long enough to realize we're living there at any rate. It's sad really, we're more willing to work the soil than they are anymore, with a few notable exceptions in the Wolfe family (silent e, they are interesting folk).
aclockworkireland said: "I planned to build an eco home out there with a bit of land for chickens and cows but I never went through with it. Youve more balls than i do."
Well I won't go so far as to accept that, our actual house hasn't been built yet due to various troubles, the cottage is cozy enough for now, though it leaks hot air like a sieve in the winter it works well for our usually hot and humid weather.
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Erin
New Member
Practotioner of the Creideamh Si and flamekeeper/priestess of Brigit.
Posts: 40
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Post by Erin on Nov 27, 2013 11:11:19 GMT -8
So clockwork, I'd say your idea of intercessors sounds to me like the concepts of context and precedent, in which the cultural mythos and the community work together to provide those things. Would you agree? I can appreciate that.
I think my making a mountain here sacred through story and meaning, which is shared among my close circle of friends here, is just what the Irish ancestors did back in the day together and does make it a cultural, communal reality here and now as it did then and there, even if the scale of population is different. Same idea being applied. The powers are said to reside in those places because the people perceived and personified them there due to specific features and characteristics of a place being present there. So one might also perceive that personification in a similar type of place but not in a topographically different sort of place. The river goddess Danu seemed to be perceived all over Europe and the isles, for all the rivers named for her. So that is how I am seeing it working. What did you mean by consecrating a mountain with rituals? Is that something you do?
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Post by aclockworkireland on Nov 28, 2013 3:57:49 GMT -8
Wynn Dark Said: "Sorry I was using a bit of slang that I think got misunderstood, by 'woo' I didn't mean scary I just meant it isn't all Hollywood Fireworks and Lightning Oooh and Ahh...granted actually coming up against a fae in my experience has always come with more than a little fear, whether it's because I don't generally see them or just the Otherness they exude."
Ah right yer fine/grand. I suppose I do romantacise that life, its probably harder going. A cottage sounds like a slice of fried gold to me at the mo. I partly wish id stuck to my guns and Im partly glad I didnt with the property crash here. Some mates of mine got land in Italy Ill be better off doing the same. Its only about 2 hours away from Dublin and it costs about 50 euros for a flight. Id spend that on a night out here without thinking its a much better idea.
I know what you mean about fairies theyre not things you want to upset. Theres been times at heritage sites here when Ive been chased off, its a sensation like the one after a bad electric shock combined with a bad bout of 'the fear' you get from parting too much.
Wynn Dark Said: "Oh our human neighbors think we're crazy city folk, those that have gotten out of their bottles long enough to realize we're living there at any rate. It's sad really, we're more willing to work the soil than they are anymore, with a few notable exceptions in the Wolfe family (silent e, they are interesting folk). "
Thats tragic and its the same in the rural spot I was in, multigenerational drinking problems making alcaholism an aspirational goal for kids. I thought it was because pubs funded the war of independance and they had too much leeway here and I didnt think it might be modernities impact on life rural areas. Atleast theres some decent people there in the wolfes. The few good people I knew left for cities shortly after i did.
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